Mother 'flushed baby by accident'

She knew she was pregnant, I think you might have read it wrong. 

I don't believe a word of her story.  4 years for "concealing a pregnancy", sheesh.

Not sure of the laws in the UK, but here in the US it's legal to kill children up until the time they are born.  Even then PP and other groups want to to allow them to die if the abortion was intentional and they are accidentally born alive. 

What's the difference, why should she do any time?  Because she didn't pay a doctor and "properly dispose" of the baby?

If a baby has zero value before it takes a breath, why would we suddenly be outraged?

No, Dennis, as a blanket statement, it is not true.  Laws vary from state to state. 

Please see:

http://www.guttmacher.org/statecenter/spibs/spib_OAL.pdf

There's a chart there, but specifically:

Gestational Limits: 36 states prohibit abortions, generally except when necessary to protect the woman’s life or health, after a specified point in pregnancy, most often fetal viability.

Well, it isn't that black and white...but here is what Wikipedia says. This is what about.com says.

According to Planned Parenthood, you can't recieve a medicated abortion after 9 weeks, and I found this to be interesting about in-clinic abortions.

Moreover, the article specifically stated that it wasn't yet determined whether the baby had taken a breath prior to ending up in the toilet.

Besides, this article isn't about abortion. It is about a woman who had an affair, became pregnant as a result, concealed her pregnancy from her partner and her family, carried the baby to full term, and then ''uknowingly'' birthed it into the toilet, after which she allegedly tried resuscitate the child, instead of calling for help...she put it in the trunk of her car. 

I don't really see how you can compare this to an abortion which, when done legally, is done with the supversion and consent of a liscenced doctor. Moreover, there is a lot more to the process,which includes making sure the person is physicaly and mentally prepared for the procedure.

Ah yes conservatives love to defend human life up until it is born, then they don't give a crap about it, whether it starves and needs welfare or any kind of assistance.

A little thing called "adoption"

Because all babies given up for adoption make it out of the system into loving nurturing homes...

Look up the stats at the lines of people waiting for a newborn.

Newborns aren't the only ones put up for adoption, just because people want to adopt doesn't mean they are able or qualified, and even if you choose to go the adoption route you still have to carry the baby for 9 months...

I could go on...But again, this article isn't about abortion, it is about a woman birthing her baby in a toilet and then hiding the corpse in her trunk.

According to Planned Parenthood, you can't recieve a medicated abortion after 9 weeks, and I found this to be interesting about in-clinic abortions.

after 9 weeks they use different methods

Gestational Limits: 36 states prohibit abortions, generally except when necessary to protect the woman’s life or health, after a specified point in pregnancy, most often fetal viability.

A woman's health also includes mental health.  If she is stressed or upset about the pregnancy, it is valid grounds.

In the US abortion is essentially legal through all 40 weeks of pregnancy.  It is only prohibited after the baby's head emerges and the baby takes a breath -hence the use of the "partial birth abortions" until the ban.  Now they inject saline or other deadly chemicals into the baby to kill it and then induce labor.  A few states have been able to put restrictions on the very late term abortions, but they have all faced legal battles from Planned Parenthood.  Our new President has promised to sign in a new law (FOCA) that will eliminate all existing state restrictions on abortion.

Ah yes conservatives love to defend human life up until it is born, then they don't give a crap about it, whether it starves and needs welfare or any kind of assistance.

Interesting... I've heard this propoganda before, but in essentially every city or town -even small towns, there are crisis pregnancy centers, charities that receive no federal or state funding, that provide prenatal care, baby clothes, cribs, diapers, formula, housing, parenting classes, adoption assistance, counseling and other assistance to moms facing an unplanned pregnancy.

PP, on the other hand,  receives about $400 million per year from the Federal government, is a "for profit" company, and turns away inner-city teens seeking birth control if they don't have the $10 co-pay.

So, why would we be outraged?

Mego-507171:

 That's right, it's not about abortion, however, my initial post was in response to

Ah yes conservatives love to defend human life up until it is born, then they don't give a crap about it, whether it starves and needs welfare or any kind of assistance.

This is a very broad assumption. I personally care about "defending human life". If a person says they do not "defend human life" what does that speak about that person. I was letting this person know that you can "defend human life" and still give a crap about it after. I disagree with what this woman did, but when you say it is ok to destroy life...she decided to do an at home abortion apparently.

Average mom, would you prefer that abortion be illegal and dangerous, with women and their doctors not being able to have this choice?

If it is made illegal, it won't go away.

Average Mom,

I posted my facts on abortion because your post was misleading and I wanted Dennis to have a clear picture of abortion in this country without just spewing out my own talking points.

A woman's health also includes mental health.  If she is stressed or upset about the pregnancy, it is valid grounds.

You didn't read my whole post did you? Women are interviewed before the procedure...if they feel she may change her mind, or if her partner is willing to accept full responsibility...that is grounds for telling them to rethink their procedure.

What you and Sherrieter seem to have missed (and I am not really sure why because the article was a pretty easy read) Is that this woman isn't claiming to have aborted her child. Considering she claims to have tried to resuscitate the child insinuates that the wanted the child to live. Moreover, she is an adult woman. Abortion is legal in the UK why not get a legal one, no one would know...and this wouldn't be splashed all over the news. She hid the pregnancy from her family, and had intentions of leaving her partner for her lover so they could raise the child...

Further, I find it interesting that you are trying to prove how callus to human life those who are pro-choice are. I think it shows a particularly high level of callus and disregard for human life not to be the least appalled at what this woman did, and to further twist it into something else to promote your own political agenda.

Mego-507171

Ah yes conservatives love to defend human life up until it is born

This is what I was responding to initially.

This sounds pretty callous to me, I'm letting this person speak for themselves, I have no agenda.

Let's see if I can give you some of the links you want.

Here's the rest of the list of procedures and complications after 9 weeks:

http://www.pregnancycenters.org/abortion.html

This one cites a few of the recent instances where planned parenthood has helped child molesters and rapists cover up their crimes by taking a young girl for a quick and easy abortion.  It aslo cites the many cases where proof has been established that PP reports lower numbers of abortions, and lower gestational age of fetuses than what they are actually doing:

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NTI0MjQ1Y2IyZWM0M2E1Mzk2NGMwYzhkZjdkNjBmMjA== 

yeah, rape and incest sucks, but the guilt of killing your innocent child afterwards makes it worse.

This one gives a little background of PP's founder, Margaret Sanger, and her mission and vision:

http://www.blackgenocide.org/planned.html

Planned parenthood holds true to that mission and vision today:

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=57526

Here's a little bit about the conservatives who don't give a damn once the baby is born:

http://www.thecrisispregnancycenterct.org/Services.htm

http://www.lifecall.org/cpc/az.html

And here are the actual restrictions by state.  The supreme court has only allowed a few restrictions to be placed on the absolute right to abortion:

http://www.pregnantpause.org/lex/abortsum.htm

"For the stage subsequent to viability the State, in promoting its interest in the potentiality of human life, may, if it chooses, regulate, and even proscribe, abortion except where necessary, in appropriate medical judgment, for the preservation of the life or health of the mother."

Subsequent court decisions defined the term "preservation of health" very broadly, to include such situations as a woman being suicidaly depressed about being pregnant.

Actual wording of the legal documents available at the website below.  Health of the mother includes mental distress.  There is absolutely no requirement that this must be established or verified by a mental health professional, or even a medical doctor.  It is based on self report:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_supr.htm

And even with these extremely liberal guidelines (ie. kill them BEFORE they are born), Planned Parenthood chooses not to follow even those.  Here is a video of a "counseling" session with a client:

http://www.eyeblast.tv/public/video.aspx?v=e46UZuaGSU

As sherrietr said, this was probably an at home abortion.  They do still happen, frequently.  Legalizing abortion has resulted in an increase in illegal, unsafe abortions, not a decrease: 

http://www.texasrighttolife.com/lifeIssues_abortion_myths.php

Legalizing abortion should have eliminated some deaths related to illegal abortions, but that is not the case.  In the years from 1963-1969, there were an average of approximately 55 deaths per year due to illegal abortions.  In 1970, after this initial wave of laws legalizing abortions, there were 109.  Deaths from illegal abortions actually increased.

By the year before the Roe v. Wade Supreme Court decision allowing legal abortion on demand in all fifty states, the death rate for illegal abortions had fallen to 24 in 1972 (with 25 additional deaths as a result of legal abortions).  In 1973, there should have been a sharp drop in abortion-related deaths with abortion legal in all fifty states and “back-alley abortions” eliminated with their alleged total of maternal deaths.  Yet abortion-related deaths increased again with 25 deaths resulting from legal abortion in 1973, 26 in 1974 and 29 in 1975

Oh, no one threw this out there yet, but... aren't these kids going to ba abused because they "weren't wanted?"

Here's a great study on the biggest cause of maternal child abuse:

The Internet Journal of Pediatrics and Neonatology

http://www.ispub.com/ostia/index.php?xmlFilePath=journals/ijpn/vol6n2/abortion.xml

Did I cover it all?  I hope you really don't need a citation for this one, but kids don't go into "the system" when a birthmother chooses adoption.  She picks from many wonderful families, and they pay all the expenses. 

No, this article isn't about abortion, so I apologize to Dennis for getting off track.  It's just infuriating to see a bunch of people crying crocodile tears and pointing condemning fingers at this poor woman, when everything we do as a society has told her that babies don't matter.  They are distractions and garbage to be disposed of. 

If you believe abortion is acceptable, then it is absolutely, outrageously, hypocritical to be upset by this story

Thanks for all the pro-life websites to prove your biased view point. Just so you know, not all children go through private adoption like you suggest. The percentage varies by states. Another thing, why are we talking about adoption laws in the USA, when this woman is from the UK???

If you think this article has anything to do with abortion, and if you think that as individuals we don't have a right to be personally offended then that is absolutely, outrageously, dillusional. Once again, you should be ashamed of yourself for trying to promote your own political agenda.

This "poor" woman is likely mentally ill... this isn't an abortion issue. Spin it all you want, but I am done entertaining your off topic argument. If you think people actually believe that "babies don't matter",  I highly highly suggest you walk a day in the shoes of the "poor" 15 year old girl who has to make that descision. Hence Aimee Franc's statment holds valid.

I highly highly suggest you walk a day in the shoes of the "poor" 15 year old girl who has to make that descision. Hence Aimee Franc's statment holds valid.

Been there, done that.  Been mentoring teen moms ever since. Not all the websites are pro-life.  Only the ones relating to the CPC's that apparently "don't care" and the ones with links to actual court docs. because it's easier to navigate.

 if you think that as individuals we don't have a right to be personally offended then that is absolutely, outrageously, dillusional

You have the right to be offended, that is not what I was saying or implying.  I would just like a few more people to be offended at the millions of babies "legally" killed every year.  If this story touched a nerve, then there are things you can do to help.

you should be ashamed of yourself for trying to promote your own political agenda.

Not a political agenda -abortion crosses party lines as well as all economic, racial, religious, cultural and national agendas.  It is a human rights issue, like any other mass genocide or holocaust.  I would be ashamed if I remained silent.

Average mom,

This article isn't about abortion and your input hasn't been meaningful, like another said you are promoting your own agenda, not discussing the topic at hand.  If you don't have anything to say on topic why speak at all?

I don't know where you women got the idea that she didn't know she was pregnant.  Did you read the story?

Oh, she knew she was pregnant, alright, which makes what she did even MORE unbelievable.

I've never had a baby, but I would imagine that it hurts a bit more than intestinal cramps.  The fact that she concealed the pregnancy makes this story sound very suspect..really hard to prove though.  Had she not known and it had been premature I could see it possibly happening but I think she just needed a cover story.

Six, seven and eight pounders babies it's the same pain!

Well, even castor oil is given when the baby is very late and both pains are very different.

I was in induced labor for 32 hours with my son and I assure you that contractions do NOT feel like diarrhea. I guess unless your Diarrhea comes out like watermelons.

A little colorful but ya I totally agree with you...

lol.  Agreed.

LOLOL hafrigginlarious.

Ha I am a woman and one who has had kids and ya there is definitely a difference between the two...LOL

Gentlemen if thou wishes to get an idea (and you've never passed a kidney stone) of what it is to pass a 10lb bowling bowl through a space the distance between your pinky and thumb...........all the while thinking......OMG! I have strangers looking at me 'down there!" OMG I hope I don't lose control! OMG! I look like hell! OMG! How many more fingers, hands and faces are going to explore me down there today!???

Take your bottom lip and stretch it out in all directions as hard as you can and then let go.....then after 2 minutes.....repeat.......do this about 100 times. Then take that stingingly numb and engorged fat bottom lip and stretch it out one last time....and pinch it HARD and hold it for about 3 minutes. Repeat.  Now, take this stingingly numb, engorged, throbbing purple and red bottom lip and stretch upwards towards the back of your head and have someone staple gun the length of it. Release and repeat.  Then take off your shoes and walk on hot coals.......while someone yells DONT RUN DONT PUSH......BREATHE BREATHE ....NO NO NO NO DONT PUSH.........Dont worry.....we'll clean it up.......it's ok..............DONT PUSH DAMNIT! BREATHE......FOCUS FOCUS.....then when it feels like you're walking on what remains of your mangled feet......repeat the whole process for about 10-24 hours.......or in my case 72.

Then......once it all passes......and you've been given the chance to think HOLY CRAP WTF DO I NOW.......they pass the baby to you....and have it clamp down on that bottom lip to feed.......all the while.......your abdomen is kneaded like a lump of dough so that your give birth again.......this time to the placenta........and you're sewn up, patched up, cleaned up......all without mercy.

......and then comes the joy a few days later when you go into labor yet again.....this time tis isn't a baby you have to pass......

Cheers gentlmen.....cheers!

:)

...I think I'll adopt...

LOL!

And who is the weaker sex?

;)

My mother was, a swear, the most brilliant woman in the world.

As I was getting ready to go off to college, she landed me a summer job babysitting for a wonderful pregnant woman with a 3 year old.  (They wanted their son to be used to the babysitter, so when he woke up the day Mom had to go deliver baby, he wouldn't be scared.)

So, there I am, answering the 3am call, rushing to the apartment... and watching a woman go into labor.  Ouch.

Six hours later, she was home.  (No insurance, husband had lost his job, found a new one, and the new policy hadn't kicked in, yet, AND, with a 3 year old to feed, they couldn't afford COBRA.)  So, I got to watch her right AFTER having the baby.  And, take care of older brother and this teeny, tiny, hours old baby.

You better BELIEVE me, I wasn't going to wind up going through that unless it was ON PURPOSE.

I think Golden Gate Susi hit it in the head with that comment. All all the while remember your doing all this with absolutly no pain killers. I honestly snapped my husband's wrist and fractured it while giving birth, did not even realize it.

Well, that may not be true.  My first pregnancy I was totally oblivious to the fact that when you are in labor, if feels like you have to go to the bathroom big time.  I was so embarrassed.  I thought I had to go to the potty, when I was actually in labor.   I was trying to hold back.  That is what they mean when they tell you to 'push'.   So if she never had a baby before and no one told her - she might have not even known.  Logically it would not seem like that is how it would feel.  And it does not quite say that anywhere. 

If this was her first pregnancy, then it is possible she is telling the truth. 

Landspirit, 

I tend to disagree, even with it being a first there is a pain that is very intense that does not feel like diahrea, I understand what you mean about having to poop cause ya at the end it does feel that way, but leading up to it is not pain free and does not feel like diahrea cramps.. 

That is true.  The pain is intense.   It would be hard to mistake that for just cramps.